Podcast interview: Paul Ekman

Podcast interview: Paul Ekman TJ: Welcome to Science Sessions. I’m Todd Johnston. On the Fox television drama “Lie to Me,” Tim Roth plays the world’s leading deception expert: a scientist who analyzes involuntary facial expressions and body language to uncover hidden agendas. The show was inspired by the real-life research of Dr. Paul Ekman, a psychologist who for the last 40 years has examined the universal behaviors that characterize concealed human emotions. His company, the Paul Ekman Group, has trained law enforcement and national security professionals to spot deception, and offers online training for anyone who wishes to apply his techniques in their everyday lives. TJ: I sat down with Dr. Ekman to discuss the science behind “Lie to Me,” and in particular, the instinctual flashes of emotion known as microexpressions. PE: The core science of the show is really based on three bodies of work, and this is in the very first three minutes of the first show, one of Tim Roth’s throw-away lines is “facial expression of emotions are universal. There are seven emotions that have universal expression,” says Tim. Well, you know, I have 15 books that I’ve written about this and suddenly 50 million people get that message. Unbelievable, the power that has; and unbelievable that because Tim Roth says it, it’s more believable than because I say it! That is the world we live in. PE: So, that’s one. Second, I am the co-discoverer of the existence of microexpressions. Microexpressions are very fast facial expressions—they last between one-fifteenth and one-twentieth of a second—they usually involve the entire face, they’re usually intense, and they are leakage of a concealed emotion. We’ve tested about 15,000 people and very, very few—less than one percent—can spot microexpressions. And yet, this is the astounding matter, in an hour’s time with an internet tool virtually everyone can learn it. PE: The third body of work is too identify more specifically the range of behaviors, not just in the face but in gesture, voice, speech, two different things: one is whether the person is lying; and the second is whether they’re intending to try and physically hurt you. TJ: The advantages of learning to read people are fairly obvious. But in his book, “Telling Lies,” Ekman writes that “we often want to be misled; we collude in the lie, unwittingly, because we have a stake in not knowing the truth.” Here, he talks about how learning to decode microexpressions can impact our every day social contracts. PE: I became quickly convinced you could teach people how to recognize this, and now tens of thousands of people have learned how to recognize microexpressions. I always say, and people laugh when I say it but it’s true, what you’re going to learn now you can’t turn off. You’ll always see this and you may not always like what you see on the faces of your children, and on your spouse, and on your best friend. But once you learn it, it’s unavoidable.

I’ve been married, uh, almost 31 years, I do see microexpressions on my wife’s face. I never say a word about it. I think about what’s going on, but never…she likes to believe that I don’t know: fine. My daughter, I’ll say, “what are you upset about? Do you want to talk to me about it? Are you angry at me? Who are you angry at?” Emotions don’t tell you their trigger, so you don’t know who they’re aimed at. Usually in a context you can see it, particularly if it’s in response to a question you’ve asked. But even then there’s ambiguity. I call these “hot spots” because they’re not Pinocchio’s nose. But there is places where know you’re not getting full accounts. And it’s your job to see do you want to find out why. TJ: Finally, Dr. Ekman discussed what motivates his continuing research into the physiological underpinnings of deceit. PE: Of course, most of my academic friends think “why are you working with the police?” And I say to them, “do you want them to make more mistakes? Do you want more innocent people to get executed or spend 20 or 30 years…?” I mean, don’t we really want them to do a more accurate job? Obviously, we should want to help them. I mean, I’m trying to save lives by one means or another. That’s what’s motivated me since I decided to become a psychologist. I’m trying to save lives in terms of getting the right person and not imprisoning the wrong person in serious crime, and in terms of being able to detect terrorists…and, and I’m also really interested—a really high priority is preventing assassinations. What I’ve told Secret Service is what I can give you is maybe a half of one percent more than you’ve got. And they say, “That’s great.” That’s the attitude I like. I don’t have a silver bullet. I don’t have a substitute. I have an add-on, something that might help you in a particular situation. It isn’t going hurt you and it doesn’t take a long time to learn. TJ: You can read Dr. Ekman’s research publications, his weekly column called “The Truth about Lie to Me,” and take the online training course at his web site.